Archive for EFSedan.com 1987 to 1991 Honda Civic Sedan Owners Club
 


       EFSedan.com Forum Index -> Suspension/Brakes/Wheels/Tires
nala619

Springs & Coilovers

whats the difference between the two besides that coilovers are adjustable? and im wondering how the ride is if your on coilovers? thanks
~Sp33~

Well, a full coilover includes a shock as well. The basic benefits are:

1) Easier installation
2) The springs are best suited to the shock according to manufacturers specifications.
3) Usually it's safer to go lower with a full coilover, then just using springs too.
4) Most coilover setups have adjustable dampening too, which is really handy if you use the same car for daily commuting and weekend drives.

The benefits of using just springs, well...

1) It's cheaper.

That's all i can think of. Some people mate up springs and shocks quite successfully, but for the assurance of a good setup, if you can afford it, just go with a full coilover.
nala619

mm i see. thanks. you broke it down for me a lot. i was debating to get either a friends coilovers(skunkworks, im guessing thats pretty old school?) or tokico blues which is used for $100.
EF2dudesocal

i have coilovers and they ride pretty nice u can adjust to stiff setting or smooth and one plus thing u can adjust ur ride hight anytime u want. i really like them.
88Dark_CivLude

Depending on your local jurisdiction if the car is "too low" and you get a ticked 4 it  it only takes 10 mins to put the ride back at stock height with coilovers! ya get the ticket written off then adjust the car back to being wayyyyyy to low! Cool  boy oh boy was that cop mad lol

im using NuSpeed Co's and had to use my stock struts the tokico blues i got with them were got were for a teg  Sad  but If you do use your stock struts  get a new set or aftermarket ones... I had a run in with old super bumpy road and some train tracks today and my exhaust and cd player hate me now lol
ksconekiller

~Sp33~ wrote:
Well, a full coilover includes a shock as well. The basic benefits are:

1) Easier installation
2) The springs are best suited to the shock according to manufacturers specifications.
3) Usually it's safer to go lower with a full coilover, then just using springs too.
4) Most coilover setups have adjustable dampening too, which is really handy if you use the same car for daily commuting and weekend drives.

The benefits of using just springs, well...

1) It's cheaper.

That's all i can think of. Some people mate up springs and shocks quite successfully, but for the assurance of a good setup, if you can afford it, just go with a full coilover.


That's pretty much it, but I will also add this: if the lowering springs are progressive rates, they will almost surely be more comfortable.  Since you're asking about the ride, I assume this car will see daily use.  Seriously consider how the car will be used, and honestly ask yourself if you really need the adjustability of coilovers.  I'm not trying to sway you one way or another, just saying.  Either way, don't use stock shocks if you're dropping more than an inch or so.

FWIW, I have a Civic hatch with coilovers, but I got a set of lowering springs for the sedan.  

Mike
nala619

well im on stock struts w/ the aftermarket intrax springs. im dropped about 2" i believe so?  and im not sure what to do considering that my stock struts are almost blown. should i just run w/ the intrax & get new struts? btw yeah my car is a daily and thanks for the help all.
~Sp33~

It all depends on what you can afford.
nala619

im actually tryin to save for the skunk 2 set up & also the UAC.  ive heard the skunk 2's are pretty good?
~Sp33~

nala619 wrote:
im actually tryin to save for the skunk 2 set up & also the UAC.  ive heard the skunk 2's are pretty good?


They're definitely popular, though i don't have personal experience with them.
nala619

yeah ive heard from people that own hatchs but none from a sedan, anyone out there have exp w/ the skunk 2's?
Type-S EF

Which model from skunk2?
Im going TEIN because i can buy individual parts,  I drive my cars hard.
ed3tsmith

i have skunk2 lowering springs. they ride nice on my kyb agx's
Type-S EF

ed3tsmith wrote:
i have skunk2 lowering springs. they ride nice on my kyb agx's


I do too, but need stiffer shocks, was thinking koni yellow/sports
ed3tsmith

lol my kyb's are on the 4th setting. which is pretty stiff. i feel everything lol.
ksconekiller

I have Koni sports with Progress lowering springs on my sedan.  Love them.
88Dark_CivLude

nala619 wrote:
well im on stock struts w/ the aftermarket intrax springs. im dropped about 2" i believe so?  and im not sure what to do considering that my stock struts are almost blown. should i just run w/ the intrax & get new struts? btw yeah my car is a daily and thanks for the help all.


you too my stock struts are killing me too!

well if you like the intraxs keep them! I cant wait to get my tokico blues to go with my nuspeed Coilovers. my boys Del sol has a set of them and hes dropped lower than my civic on springs it still has a nice ride for being so lol Shocked but he's going Drop zone Co's with tokico blues

(so that he wont have to worry about fix it tickets lol)
ksconekiller

Just be aware that the Tokico blues are not designed to be used with lowering springs.  They were designed as a stock upgrade.  If you want the best success with lowered springs without a coilover setup, you'll want to do KYB AGXs, Tokico Illuminas, or Koni Sports (something that was designed for a lowered application).  How long has your friend had the lowering springs on that del Sol?  If it's been more than a few months, I'd be surprised if the shocks aren't blown.

Coilovers with those Tokico blues would be okay, I suppose, as long as the coilover allows the shock to extend enough at ride height.  If it still compresses the shock too much while driving, it will wear out just like with lowering springs.  You'll also get the most performance from the springs if the shocks match them.

Replace shocks and springs together if necessary to make them work together.  If you're taking everything apart to replace springs, you might as well do it right and put a good shock on the car.
nala619

ksconekiller wrote:
Just be aware that the Tokico blues are not designed to be used with lowering springs.  They were designed as a stock upgrade.  If you want the best success with lowered springs without a coilover setup, you'll want to do KYB AGXs, Tokico Illuminas, or Koni Sports (something that was designed for a lowered application).  How long has your friend had the lowering springs on that del Sol?  If it's been more than a few months, I'd be surprised if the shocks aren't blown.

Coilovers with those Tokico blues would be okay, I suppose, as long as the coilover allows the shock to extend enough at ride height.  If it still compresses the shock too much while driving, it will wear out just like with lowering springs.  You'll also get the most performance from the springs if the shocks match them.

Replace shocks and springs together if necessary to make them work together.  If you're taking everything apart to replace springs, you might as well do it right and put a good shock on the car.


wow i didnt know that. looks like i wont be getting those tokico blues, ill probally just end up going w/ the skunk 2's.  i wanna do it the right way and good thing you brought up the thing about the tokico's.
88Dark_CivLude

ksconekiller wrote:
Just be aware that the Tokico blues are not designed to be used with lowering springs.  They were designed as a stock upgrade.  If you want the best success with lowered springs without a coilover setup, you'll want to do KYB AGXs, Tokico Illuminas, or Koni Sports (something that was designed for a lowered application).  How long has your friend had the lowering springs on that del Sol?  If it's been more than a few months, I'd be surprised if the shocks aren't blown.

Coilovers with those Tokico blues would be okay, I suppose, as long as the coilover allows the shock to extend enough at ride height.  If it still compresses the shock too much while driving, it will wear out just like with lowering springs.  You'll also get the most performance from the springs if the shocks match them.

Replace shocks and springs together if necessary to make them work together.  If you're taking everything apart to replace springs, you might as well do it right and put a good shock on the car.




hes had them on there for for a while now. only reason hes going Co's is cus he got a Fix it ticket for the car being to low (the cops here are kinda asses when it comes to ride ANY mods done to hondas) and ITS A PITA to put it back to stock then get the ticket signed off then put the lowing springs back on...
Xian

Quite a bit of good info above... a few items I'd like to point out and clarify:

Coilover's is a general term that refers to stock like shocks with threaded height adjustable coilover sleeves AND it refers to shocks that have the threaded portion built onto their body.

Some folks consider the coilover sleeves to be a half-assed approach to a suspension (these folks typically don't do much more with their cars than street drive and are more concerned with "JDM titeness YO!" than an actual effective suspension system).  There's nothing wrong with factory style shocks and sleeves (Ground Control sleeves are probably the most possible).

Coilover Sleeve's only purpose is to adjust your ride height and allow you to corner weight your car.  One of their benefits vs. drop springs is that you can easily get new springs at the specific rate you want/need.  Their major drawback is that these springs are linear and not progressive.  This means a typically rougher ride.

Shock selection is as important or possibly more important than spring/coilover selection (assuming you're not too low and riding on the bumstops aready).  Get a shock that is going to work for your intended spring rate and ride height.  Koni Sports "yellows" are a great street shock on the off the shelf valving and can be revalved and/or shortened if you get serious about autocrossing or racing.  They're typically good to around 500# spring rates and don't blow due to lowering (unless you've cut down your bump stop too much and allow their internals to bottom).

If you're happy with your current springs, keep 'em and upgrade your shocks.  I'd suggest checking out the Koni's as they're effective, reasonably priced, and have a lifetime warranty.

Christian

edit & PS
KYB AGX's are also VERY prone to blowing out at low ride height... I believe they even mention this in their literature.  Illuminas are a good option but they tend to have more compression damping than the Koni's... this is a good band aid if you need to run soft springs but still higher wheel rates. The Koni's run relatively soft compression damping but have fairly high rebound dagmping.  Their adjuster knob only impacts rebound (which is all 98% of us really need).
hondacivicdx

Have you thought about teins or tanwabee? I like tokico's but everyone is different.
JDQCIVIC4DR

functions full coilover kits go about $600 pretty stiff i like them. just dont buy ebay cheapo coil over they strip sometimes. plus if you go air borne sometimes the coil doesnt line up and messes up the alignment.
Xian

JDQCIVIC4DR wrote:
functions full coilover kits go about $600 pretty stiff i like them. just dont buy ebay cheapo coil over they strip sometimes. plus if you go air borne sometimes the coil doesnt line up and messes up the alignment.


NO.

A mis-seated spring WILL NOT mess up your alignment.  In fact, you can completely disassemble the shock/spring assembly from the car and re-install it without messing up the alignment.  And for that matter, you can disassemble the entire front and nearly all the rear rear suspension then reassemble it without messing up the alignment.  

In stock form the only alignment setting you can adjust is toe via the steering tie rods up front and the toe links in the rear.

If by some amazing miracle you end up with a mis-seated spring, jack the car up, seat the spring correctly, lower it, and then go on your way.  No harm, no foul.  I'd like to point out that if you're having this problem on a regular basis, it's likely that one or a combination of the following needs to be fixed: #1- you have insufficient rebound damping, #2-your  ride height is too low, #3-your spring rates are too low for your ride height and damper selection.

Christian
89civicracer

Buncha good info in this thread. .
I am looking at upgrading me suspension once funds allow it. .
Not sure exactly which way i want to go. .

I've got Tein SS coilovers in the RSX-s and i love it. . .I have springs and shocks in the Honda and it has done me fine for over 10 years. . (granted, i think one of my shocks are gone). . but i am still debating whether to go with coil overs or springs for the honda?

I'll look this thread up again at decision time..  Wink
JDQCIVIC4DR

i meant to say those coilover that are too short that move like cut coils once the car is raised up in the air when the coil falls to the side ( i had a set of jamex that were cut on my prelude) and the spring would goto the sides not aline with the struts. so one side would be higher. basically dont buy cheap springs
89civicracer

Not buying cheap is a given. . you cannot buy cheap and think it will perform well. .
Xian

I run relatively short (6") springs in the rear of my car.  With the back end completely in the air, there are several inches between the top of the spring and the upper spring perch.  I've never had them side load.  Cutting stock or lowering springs pay give you different results and is a practice that I wouldn't suggest in the first place.

Good stuff ain't cheap and cheap stuff ain't good.   Wink   Try and shop in the middle price range... good quality without being too pricey.

FWIW, the RSX is a tough nut to crack... Honda really didn't do their homework on the front strut/kuckle assembly.  As such there's not much you can do to make it right.  I've heard consistent issues getting them to have any shock reliability on the front.  The front strut shaft ends up with massive side loads and tends to blow seals pretty regularly in race trim.  Add to this low camber gain at both ends, bump steer issues, and a horrible motion ratio... the result is a suspension that is best when it doesn't move at all.  The rates I've heard for a track car are completely recockulous... 2000i#'s up front and 3000# in the rear.  Wow.
Mr.ef2sedan

JDQCIVIC4DR wrote:
functions full coilover kits go about $600 pretty stiff i like them. just dont buy ebay cheapo coil over they strip sometimes. plus if you go air borne sometimes the coil doesnt line up and messes up the alignment.


I'am looking into getting some function forums.
hondacivicdx

Iwas looking at tien's there expensive really? but that's up to you.
~Sp33~

Im on Tein SS's. Was around 1700 AUD, or somewhere around 1300-1400 USD depending on the exchange. I love them.
JDQCIVIC4DR

tokico blue arent that bad....  lasted 2years and a half now they are shot in my ef ( front only going to get KYB-AGX adjustable shocks. tokico blue in my ej still alive 10 years KYB-AGX adjustable shocks in the rear. springs that im happy with are eibach nice ride not too bouncey not too stiff.  neuspeed race and sports springs, intrax, jamex, rs'r not much luck with those after a year they settle too low. weapon R coil overs too soft...
Xian

Not trying to call you out but how do you know your shocks are blown?  Short of them leaking or having a bent shock shaft there's not a way to tell if they're worn out short of putting them on a shock dyno.  FWIW, if you really are going thru shocks every 2.5 yrs, I'd suggest looking at some off the shelf Koni Sports.  They seem to last and last AND have a lifetime warranty for street use.  Hell, Koni's last in race environments longer than you're getting out of street shocks.

Oh, and last, the KYB's don't do well at lowering... they tend to blow seals and leak in fairly short order.
~Sp33~

Depending on how bad they are, you can tell by just pushing down on each corner of the car and watching how long it takes to stop the rebound.

Imprecise but effective.
Xian

Ummm... no.  Wink  Sorry, but seriously that really isn't nearly accurate enough to tell you what you need to know about shock valving and current performance.

I took a factory tour with Lee Grimes at Koni NA's facility in Ohio a couple years back (Lee's a great guy and a local fixture at big race events in the SE and also on one of the other forums I frequent).  Lee handles the performance end of things for Koni in the US market... he always jokes about folks bouncing a corner of their car to see how the shocks are working... his opinion is "You may as well lick 'em since it'll tell you about as much"  Laughing

edit & PS:

If your shocks are COMPLETELY blown then yes, the car will simply bounce anytime it hits a bump.  Typically street shocks don't reach this level of wear unless you're talking about a 20+ year old Cadillac on stock shocks at which point you'd know the entire suspension needs a rebuild anyway  Wink
~Sp33~

Xian wrote:
Ummm... no.  Wink  Sorry, but seriously that really isn't nearly accurate enough to tell you what you need to know about shock valving and current performance.  Unless you're talking about a 20+ year old Cadillac on stock shocks at which point you'd know the entire suspension needs a rebuild anyway  Wink


Yes, well i didn't say you could find out how worn they where, just if they're blown. We are talking about a 30 year old daily commuter here, chances are the sussy isn't going to look very good.
JDQCIVIC4DR

its koo my shocks takes a while for it to rebound might not be fully shot yet but getting there people that ride or drive my ef say that my shocks are shot too you can feel every small bump on the road but the rear are fine kinda stiff. goes the same for my cousin DA his tokico blue lasted close to 2 years. you can push the shock down and stays down he  changed to fuctions coil over kit very happy. still debating what to do with the ef needs a lot of work done rear bushings, alignment, new exhaust, over heating, install turbo kit, body work, since i lend to my cousin i really dont drive it,  might sell it hopefully 2,000 bucks sounds reasonable for BAR b16 w a/c really cold, power steering, just get a 88DX w 91 tail lights =) w 14inchs hub caps sleeper.
~Sp33~

JDQCIVIC4DR wrote:
88DX w 91 tail lights =)


Oh no!
ed3tsmith

~Sp33~ wrote:
JDQCIVIC4DR wrote:
88DX w 91 tail lights =)


Oh no!


LOL
LsdailySedan

what would your guys opinion be for an aggressive daily?  but i still want smoothness none of that megan coilover track shit i have on my 240 that rides fucking solid basically

i'm looking at spring/shock combos but not sure with what to go with for an aggressive lower but still got that smooth ride.

thanks guys

       EFSedan.com Forum Index -> Suspension/Brakes/Wheels/Tires
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum